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Post-MOSAIC checkride in 152?
- Larry Snyder
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01 Jan 2024 04:16 #1
by Larry Snyder
Replied by Larry Snyder on topic Post-MOSAIC checkride in 152?
Glad they finally are going to fix that.
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- Brooks McNew
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31 Dec 2023 23:07 #2
by Brooks McNew
Replied by Brooks McNew on topic Post-MOSAIC checkride in 152?
Larry,
It's my understanding that the maintenance issue has been clarified in favor of the Sport Pilot. From Advisory Circular 43-12A dated 4/18/07
1. PURPOSE. This advisory circular (AC) has been updated to reflect changes to Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) part 43, regarding preventive maintenance.
further down...
c. Authorization to Perform Preventive Maintenance and Approve for Return to Service. (1) In addition to those persons listed in paragraph 3a, § 43.3(g), (h), and (i) authorize the holder of a pilot certificate issued under part 61 to perform preventive maintenance. Section 43.7 limits the privilege to persons holding at least a private or sport pilot certificate and § 91.407(a)(1) prohibits operation of the aircraft unless approved for return to service. Further, pilots may only approve for return to service preventive maintenance which they themselves have accomplished.
It's my understanding that the maintenance issue has been clarified in favor of the Sport Pilot. From Advisory Circular 43-12A dated 4/18/07
1. PURPOSE. This advisory circular (AC) has been updated to reflect changes to Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) part 43, regarding preventive maintenance.
further down...
c. Authorization to Perform Preventive Maintenance and Approve for Return to Service. (1) In addition to those persons listed in paragraph 3a, § 43.3(g), (h), and (i) authorize the holder of a pilot certificate issued under part 61 to perform preventive maintenance. Section 43.7 limits the privilege to persons holding at least a private or sport pilot certificate and § 91.407(a)(1) prohibits operation of the aircraft unless approved for return to service. Further, pilots may only approve for return to service preventive maintenance which they themselves have accomplished.
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- Larry Snyder
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30 Dec 2023 18:50 #3
by Larry Snyder
Replied by Larry Snyder on topic Post-MOSAIC checkride in 152?
Thought #1: nobody knows how long it will be until MOSAIC is actually implemented.
Thought #2: who knows if what eventually gets implemented will look anything like the proposed rules?
Thought #3: if I were a sport pilot I would hesitate to own a certificated airplane because under the current rules only a pilot with a private certificate or higher can legally do any maintenance on a certificated aircraft. A sport pilot currently may not even add oil to an Ercoupe legally. Obviously a lot of people aren’t worried about that, but it would bug me. I vaguely remember something about the new rules making that legal but I’m not sure.
Just a little grist for the mill…
Thought #2: who knows if what eventually gets implemented will look anything like the proposed rules?
Thought #3: if I were a sport pilot I would hesitate to own a certificated airplane because under the current rules only a pilot with a private certificate or higher can legally do any maintenance on a certificated aircraft. A sport pilot currently may not even add oil to an Ercoupe legally. Obviously a lot of people aren’t worried about that, but it would bug me. I vaguely remember something about the new rules making that legal but I’m not sure.
Just a little grist for the mill…
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- Brooks McNew
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30 Dec 2023 18:03 - 30 Dec 2023 18:12 #4
by Brooks McNew
Replied by Brooks McNew on topic Post-MOSAIC checkride in 152?
At this point it's important to bear in mind that MOSAIC is still just a proposal and the details are likely to change before it goes into effect. Also, there's no firm timetable for when it will go into effect.
That being said, if there are no major changes to MOSAIC then a Sport Pilot will be able to operate a Cessna 152, including training, check rides, personal flying, etc. Just like an Ercoupe, the 152 will be what you might think of as a "Sport Pilot-Eligible Aircraft" but it will remain certificated just as it always was before MOSAIC so the requirements for service, maintenance, registration, annual inspections, etc. will not change.
In fact, there will likely be many aircraft that will become Sport Pilot-Eligible under MOSAIC, including some of the Piper PA-28 Cherokee/Warrior line, most of the Cessna 172 line and possible some of the Cessna 182 models. This will largely depend on how MOSAIC is interpreted as to "Calibrated Clean Stall Speed" which will likely be the main factor that determines whether aircraft qualify or not.
The confusion here, and this is something being hashed out right now, is that most aircraft have historically been certified with *indicated* stall speeds which makes sense safety-wise - you glance at the Airspeed Indicator and there's your indicated speed! In addition to this, in many cases more emphasis has been put into testing & publishing vSo (stall speed in landing configuration, flaps out etc.) because that's how you're likely to be configured when approaching your base-to-final turn and and transition to landing. BUT as written the Mosaic proposal specifies a certain vS1 (clean i.e. cruise configuration stall speed) and also specifies *calibrated* vS1 which often isn't even specified in Aircraft Type Certificates.
Eventually they're going to have to close the circle on this one, but I think it's a pretty good bet that the 152 will make the cut.+
If you don't want to wait for MOSAIC, and you may have to wait a while, you might look into how much your current flight school is able to do for you. It's an interesting question whether, as a student *sport* pilot, you're allowed to do any solo work in a currently non-sport-pilot-eligible aircraft such as the 152. Even is that's not the case, you may be able to knock out everything else locally and then travel somewhere else for all of your solo work in an eligible aircraft. My flight school uses RV12's for Sport Pilot training and they're truly sweet-flying aircraft - check out www.flyrv12.com/flight-schools/ to see a list of flight schools. I see that there's on in St. Paul MN.
That being said, if there are no major changes to MOSAIC then a Sport Pilot will be able to operate a Cessna 152, including training, check rides, personal flying, etc. Just like an Ercoupe, the 152 will be what you might think of as a "Sport Pilot-Eligible Aircraft" but it will remain certificated just as it always was before MOSAIC so the requirements for service, maintenance, registration, annual inspections, etc. will not change.
In fact, there will likely be many aircraft that will become Sport Pilot-Eligible under MOSAIC, including some of the Piper PA-28 Cherokee/Warrior line, most of the Cessna 172 line and possible some of the Cessna 182 models. This will largely depend on how MOSAIC is interpreted as to "Calibrated Clean Stall Speed" which will likely be the main factor that determines whether aircraft qualify or not.
The confusion here, and this is something being hashed out right now, is that most aircraft have historically been certified with *indicated* stall speeds which makes sense safety-wise - you glance at the Airspeed Indicator and there's your indicated speed! In addition to this, in many cases more emphasis has been put into testing & publishing vSo (stall speed in landing configuration, flaps out etc.) because that's how you're likely to be configured when approaching your base-to-final turn and and transition to landing. BUT as written the Mosaic proposal specifies a certain vS1 (clean i.e. cruise configuration stall speed) and also specifies *calibrated* vS1 which often isn't even specified in Aircraft Type Certificates.
Eventually they're going to have to close the circle on this one, but I think it's a pretty good bet that the 152 will make the cut.+
If you don't want to wait for MOSAIC, and you may have to wait a while, you might look into how much your current flight school is able to do for you. It's an interesting question whether, as a student *sport* pilot, you're allowed to do any solo work in a currently non-sport-pilot-eligible aircraft such as the 152. Even is that's not the case, you may be able to knock out everything else locally and then travel somewhere else for all of your solo work in an eligible aircraft. My flight school uses RV12's for Sport Pilot training and they're truly sweet-flying aircraft - check out www.flyrv12.com/flight-schools/ to see a list of flight schools. I see that there's on in St. Paul MN.
Last edit: 30 Dec 2023 18:12 by Brooks McNew.
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- Nathan Bissonette
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26 Oct 2023 08:56 - 26 Oct 2023 10:48 #5
by Nathan Bissonette
Post-MOSAIC checkride in 152? was created by Nathan Bissonette
After MOSAIC passes, a sport pilot will be able to fly the 152. Does that mean a student will be able to use the 152 as a "light sport" airplane to take the sport pilot checkride?
14 CFR 61.45 Practical Tests says: Except as provided in paragraph (a)(2) of this section or when permitted to accomplish the entire flight increment of the practical test in a flight simulator or a flight training device, an applicant for a certificate or rating issued under this part must furnish:
(1) An aircraft of U.S. registry for each required test that—
(i) Is of the category, class, and type, if applicable, for which the applicant is applying for a certificate or rating; and
(ii) Has a standard airworthiness certificate or special airworthiness certificate in the limited, primary, or light-sport category.
The 152 is a certified single-engine land airplane with a standard airworthiness certificate but not in the light-sport category. So can I use it for the practical?
I ask because I'm working on my sport pilot license but my flight school in Minnesota lacks a light sport certificated airplane to take the checkride. It'd be great if I could continue flying the same airplane that I trained in. Anybody know what the FAA is thinking on this issue?
Option B is to take leave from work to attend accelerated sport pilot training in the South. I've already passed the written. Any recommendations?
14 CFR 61.45 Practical Tests says: Except as provided in paragraph (a)(2) of this section or when permitted to accomplish the entire flight increment of the practical test in a flight simulator or a flight training device, an applicant for a certificate or rating issued under this part must furnish:
(1) An aircraft of U.S. registry for each required test that—
(i) Is of the category, class, and type, if applicable, for which the applicant is applying for a certificate or rating; and
(ii) Has a standard airworthiness certificate or special airworthiness certificate in the limited, primary, or light-sport category.
The 152 is a certified single-engine land airplane with a standard airworthiness certificate but not in the light-sport category. So can I use it for the practical?
I ask because I'm working on my sport pilot license but my flight school in Minnesota lacks a light sport certificated airplane to take the checkride. It'd be great if I could continue flying the same airplane that I trained in. Anybody know what the FAA is thinking on this issue?
Option B is to take leave from work to attend accelerated sport pilot training in the South. I've already passed the written. Any recommendations?
Last edit: 26 Oct 2023 10:48 by Nathan Bissonette.
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